searching the sunsets

Tim Stevens Asking a Great Question

If you spend any time at in the blogosphere and happen to come across some self-proclaimed discernment type blogs, you've no doubt heard about Granger's reveal study that they did last year. Big bold letters will proclaim, GRANGER COMMUNITY CHURCH PRODUCING FALSE CONVERTS!!!!

Never mind all the delicious irony that could be examined in these bloggers. They start that beating their chests, and slapping their palms down to the self study that Granger did. For one example go here. For more just google it or click here to see my google results.

Tim Stevens (one of the pastors at Granger) has finally asked the question I've been wondering for these past months. Essentially, my question was "So What?" Tim is much nicer than me. He says,

You gotta help me here, cause I don't get the problem...

What is wrong with having a gathering every week where half the people who are in attendance don't yet understand salvation by grace?

Where do we want them to go? The bar? The local golf course? To bed? Don't we want them in church where they're hearing the word fo God? Don't we want them meeting other Christians? So tell me what you think. Help me and Tim out, if you don't want them in church on Sunday mornings where do you want them?

Sins that Disqualify

We are currently in the middle of a discussion about sin in class. Are there sins that would preclude someone from going to Seminary and entering into the ministry.  In other words are there sins that someone could commit at 13 that would/should prohibit them from going into ministry.
How do you love the murderer? How do you love the sex offender? How do you love the guy that committed vehicular homicide? In March of 2006 I posted an article about loving a sex offender. I'm going to repost it below as a way to get your thought processes going. What do you think? Should Seminaries do background checks? Should they then make admission choices based on that.

Loving A Sex Offender
Last night I was watching T.V and playing around on the computer. (working on my Christian School post and a couple of online callaborations that I have going) when the T.V caused me stop and think. The realization that I hadn't checked the Ohio Sex Offenders registry yet. So I do, and I come across the fact that there is a registered sex offender living just down the street from us.
My first reaction was absolute sickness in my stomach. Then some anger that I didn't check this before I moved into this house then anger that he's allowed out. Than more sickness. If you're a parent and you've ever experienced this, you know the wide range of feelings that comes with it. I wanted to go out at 10:00 last night and drive in front of his house and see what it looked like. I wanted to post a sign that said, "Registered Sex Offender Lives Here".
Then I had one of the most horrible thoughts I've ever had, "what would Jesus do with this joker?" I hated that thought. The largest part of me doesn't want to treat this fellow like Jesus would.
Here's the immediate thoughts that came to mind.
•Love your neighbor as yourself
•pray for those who despitefully use you
•Blessed are the peacemakers
•God is not willing that any should perish
That last one was the hardest for me. I want this guy to die. To be honest I want Sexual Crimes (especially against kids) to be a capitol crime and I'm not even pro-death penalty but for these fellows I'd make an exception.
I want to be smart and protect my family, and yet I wonder how God views these people. My theology doesn’t make room for me to love these guys. I don’t know what to do with that. I wish I did, but I don’t. What are your thoughts. I’d be interested in hearing them.

America has decreased Abortion rates in the Past..

Ok, I wanted a catchy title to get your attention. I ran across this post at  a professor's blog today. I have copied and pasted the entire post here for your perusal and discussion. There is some interesting food for discussion here.

Marvin Olasky shares some key findings from his book, Abortion Rites: A Social History of Abortion in America (Crossway) in the current issue of World magazine.  You may read his provocative article here:  http://www.worldmag.com/printer.cfm?id=14857.

Olasky’s surprising discovery is that the rate of abortion relative to the population was higher in America on the eve of the Civil War than at present.  Olasky asked what made the abortion rate drop from the middle of the 19^th century until the 1960s, and this is what he found.

1. The number one cause for the decrease in abortions was churches and Christian organizations who educated and cared for pregnant women and their babies.  This is noteworthy today, as both Democratic and Republican Christians seem to be increasingly aware that providing shelter, adoption, and better choices for pregnant mothers will do the most to end abortion.  Olasky’s article demonstrates that this approach worked before, and it may well do the job again.

2. More controversial, Olasky found that while laws against abortion were not the main focus of the 19^th century prolife movement, yet they did assist in the effort.  Contrary to pro choice advocates who argue that laws against abortion will require us to throw many women in jail, Olasky discovered that 19^th century anti-abortion laws were “almost never” used to prosecute women and only rarely the person who performed the abortion. 

So why have the laws in the first place?  Olasky argues that anti-abortion laws educated the people.  They “did send a message of right and wrong.  They forced abortionists to advertise in code, bribe policemen and politicians, and hire lawyers.  Laws could not end abortion but it could reduce the butcher’s bill, just as laws against drunken driving today cannot end the practice but can save lives.  Today, it’s still worthwhile to pass laws restricting abortion, but time and money spent on providing and promoting compassionate alternatives saves more lives.”

Here is my question:  Should we work to pass anti-abortion laws with the intent to enforce them only against those who perform abortions, those who perform and those who have abortions, or like the 19^th century, should we work to pass anti-abortion laws for their educational value, with little to no intent on enforcing them?   Or should we forget about passing laws altogether? (not my preferred option).

On a personal note, I am grateful to Marvin Olasky for giving a shout out to Don’t Stop Believing in his review of recent books (p. 20 of the current issue of World).  He included Don’t Stop Believing with William Craig’s new apologetic, Reasonable Faith (Crossway), under the heading, “Some books are always in season, because the poorly informed about Christ we’ll always have with us.”  Amen to that.

Would You Pray at Obama's Inauguration ?

Unless you've been living under a rock, you've probably heard that President-elect Obama has chosen Rick Warren to offer the invocation at his inauguration. This has caused no amount of angst amongst many groups. From gay activists to fundamentalist and everyone in between this is a hot button issue.

Even Al Mohler has weighed in. Al says he couldn't do it. In fact, Al implies that Rick is just trying to be cool. I want to know what you think? Please note, we are not talking about voting for the man. We're talking about after he's been elected and if you were asked would you accept the invitation? Please keep your comments limited to the scope of that scenario.

The LORD's Boot Camp

I first heard of "The LORD's Boot Camp" the  CBS special from a lady who was very angry about it. I'm not really all that sure why she was so fired up. Of course she's angry about a lot of things. Most of the time, she's the one flinging mud at the body of Christ. Anyhow, the LORD's Boot Camp is run by Teen Missions International. Billy Graham's grandson was on the show.

I didn't see anything too crazy on it. I admit I missed some parts doing the Dad thing, but I saw people trying to honestly live out there faith. They did quite a few things that I think probably aren't all that effective. The one girl kind of went about "evangelism" as a sales pitch and said as much in the piece.

CBS only seemed to show the extreme personalities, and I wonder how many were there that were far more toward the middle.

At the end, I guess there was some stuff I appreciated, some stuff I didn't like and some stuff that I think is the complete wrong way to go about sharing the gospel. They didn't really seem to focus on making disciples as much as they focused on making "converts."

If those who follow the Way think that this being on T.V. should matter one way or the other toward our mission they're crazy. For those that will get mad that "the world" will use this to poke fun at "us", they too are crazy. At the end of the day, this is one group trying to share the good news. They are definitely from the fundamental strain of Christ followers but I doubt this is that big of a deal.

You can see the CBS page here. You can also see one blog's response here. The writers piece is nice, the comments are better. (Side note: My friend Stuart Delony hates the camp based on his comment)

Did you watch it? If so, what were your thoughts? What do you think about the reactions?

Why Do We Get Married?

There's a new blogger in town and I'm happy to say he is a friend of mine. Wayne Haines started blogging just a little while ago and he has some provocative things to say. One of his posts deals with the question of why do we get married?  I commented and he responded. I think I am going to start a post on why I believe we get married, but I wanted to throw it out there to you. What do you think? Why do we get married? To read Wayne's post go here. Don't forget to add his blog to your favorites or RSS feed.

4 Stages of Community

A friend gave me a photocopied chapter from a book. Unfortunately, I don’t know the name of the book. Here is what the author has to say about community. What do you think?

4 Stages of Community:

1.    Pseudocommunity: Not really community at all. Everyone pretends to get along and bites down any disagreement. Looks like a real community but it is nothing more than people acting pleasant.
2.    Chaos: Always centers around well-intentioned but misguided attempts to heal.  The group has some people who emerge as “healers” and “converters.” People by and large resist change so the healers and converters amp up their attempts
3.    Emptiness: There are only two ways out of chaos: 1. Organization, which is never real community and emptiness . Emptiness is the bridge between chaos and community
4.    Community: True cohesion in the group.  Created by the group

The author suggests some questions to ask group members who say they want to be in community:

1.    What are you doing that is holding the group back from creating true community?
2.    What price are you willing to pay for the group to achieve true community?
3.    Are you willing to empty yourself of all of your expectations and serve the entire group to create true community?

What do you think?

"Dude, You Know What's Wrong With The Church?" A Real Conversation

True Conversation I had recently

Friend: "Dude, do you know what's wrong with the church in America today?"
Me:      "Um, is this a rhetorical question?"
Friend: "It's 'cooler' to adopt a kid from Africa than it is a kid from Detroit. We have 100,000 kids waiting for adoption in America but we're so busy running around the world we forget the poor right here at home. It sucks..."

They're Right because They Say They're Right!!! (And Because They're Pastors, Please Ignore The Crusades and The Inquisition)

There are a lot of things that I like about the internet. There are also a lot of things that drive me bonkers.One of those is that anybody can say anything they want about anybody and there really is no accountability. What’s worse, if you read the crap the person is intimating and go back and forth with the person you actually increase their blog hits and somehow that reinforces that they’re being read and they’re getting the word out. I mean I can call anyone a heretic, I can call anyone anything and as long as I say that I’m defending the truth I’m good to go.
Recently I was directed to a site that built his entire argument on two premises. Those two premises were summarily dismantled. He quoted one guy that he talked to over a year ago. Now, he could quote the guy word for word but he couldn’t remember his name. He’s willing to call an entire church apostate because of this conversation but he can’t remember who he talked to? Then, he said that another pastor of the church said something on a certain medium and that made the church apostate. Well, I went and watched the medium, my wife went and watched the medium and we both said, “What?” So I went to the guys site and shared my problems with his using a conversation over a year ago to prove something when he couldn’t remember the guy’s name. Then I told him that I believed he was being dishonest with his interpretation of the statement that he was harping on. Essentially, his entire argument had been dismantled. His response? Some of his supporters threw out the whole “pastor/teacher” title for why he’s right. Some actually called me a hypocrite and a snake, which I found to be most interesting. My favorite was his response which could be summed up as “I’m right and you’re wrong. I’m right because I’m a pastor and I said I’m right.”  He essentially said that it is his job to call out this “heresy”--which I will contend he had to lie to support--because he was a pastor.  Isn’t that what led to the Inquisition and the Crusades? This is why most of the time I stay away from these people.

Bible College Ruined Me! (Almost) part 2

Here's another part of this story. This is the part left out of yesterday's stuff. There's a lot more in various formats.

    After this encounter I started paying attention to the other students around me. The underclassmen who were “going somewhere,” who other students paid attention to wore ties every day. They did everything they could to look like the upperclassmen, who had to wear a tie and coat. The legalism was so entrenched that a student who had been there more than four semesters but was still academically a sophomore had to wear the “upperclassmen” dress even though they were in no way an upperclassmen. The system was more concerned with controlling behavior than changing hearts.
    I realized that I was doing what she said, and I was doing it because I wanted people to think that God and I were tight. I wanted people to look at me and think that I was “spiritually mature”--whatever that means. In a year and a half I had learned the rules of the game. On this campus, people who were mature walked a certain way, dressed a certain way and debated certain things in a certain manner. They talked in a certain code and talked about “wrestling with God.” I did these things because I wanted to be cool. I had made the right friends and turned my head when the right people broke the same rules as the other people. In short, I had sold out to the system. I was a fraud. Instead of being honest and talking about what I really wrestled with God about, I only wrestled with the “spiritual issues.” There were things the “beautiful” could talk about and there were things you couldn’t talk about.
    Kate’s comments forced me to realize that I had become the very thing I hated. I never wore another tie that year. I went back to what I called my “freshman dress code.” It was within the bounds of the rules and no one thought it was cool. I am not sure if I changed who my friends were of if they stopped being my friend. I do know that almost all of the friends I had that year would not be people who would consider me a friend nor me them three years later when I graduated.
    This is the most insidious aspect of creating a subculture where behavior is modified but the heart is not allowed to be expressed.  As it is with any good gang, the message my Bible College was you are either one of us or you are not. You either look, walk, talk and act like us or you are out. There can be no compromise, no dissent and certainly no discussion. Everything is done to preserve the status quo of the gang. Make no mistake in many respects, Bible College is every bit a gang. It is an overt attempt to change you from the outside in, which is completely backwards from how we see the Bible prescribe change for people.
    To be sure, the idea of a sub-culture is found in any group of people. In other words any group of people will always have those that are the trend setters, who set the standard that others follow. The problem with a Bible College that has the kind of dress code that mine had is that it fosters the idea that there is a Christian way to dress. No matter how much it is said that there is not, actions always speak louder than words. Always.
    Let me express it another way. In the house that I grew up in T-shirts were casual. If you’re shirt had a collar, it was a dress shirt regardless of how many buttons were on it. When we went out for fun we wore a T-shirt. Now when I went to college there was a group that believed that T shirts were not to be worn in public. If you went out, you were to wear a collar. Usually, what would be called a “polo shirt.” I realize now that this was because the school was full of what would be considered the “prep” sub-culture. My problem with this sub-culture that I encountered in college was that it became elevated to spirituality. If you didn’t dress that way, you were not as spiritual as those that did. It has nothing to do with the idea that you came from a culture that didn’t dress that way, it had to have something to do with your level of spiritual maturity.
    Now stop and think about that for a moment. How many students do you suppose go to a Bible College struggling with the idea of their relationship with God? How many grew up in what I call fighting fundamentalism where they were taught they have to earn God’s love? Regardless of what is said, actions always speak louder than words and a system that sets up a “class” system will always over-ride those kind souls who stand up in front of a class and tell us that we do not affect how much God loves us. The system said something completely different.
    Please understand, this is not about shirts and ties or hooded sweatshirts. It has to do with the idea that to wrestle with wearing certain things or not wearing certain things makes one spiritual. This is especially insidious at a college that is supposed to be about the business of helping you explore and deepen your spirituality. This is about the idea that says, “WOW, you and God must be tight because your wearing a tie more often now…” That is the way of the Pharisee. That is the path to death and destruction. Over the years, I have had the opportunity to meet many different people in many different career paths and some of the most ungodly, mean, dishonest people I have ever met always wore a tie and suit. Not all of them held the office of Pastor.